Poker...Skill or Luck?
What is more important, having a hand or knowing what your opponent has? I'll take reading your hand over having a perceived made hand any day. If I know what you raise with -- I know I can gut you. Trust me - I have the patience. If you raise with AK - A10, and I know this, I'll take a chance with two live cards, not only for the implied odds, but for the tilt odds too.
It does not matter what cards you hold vs. what I hold, and it really does not matter what you think of my play . What does matter is that I know what you have, and I will use it against you.
What I find funny is that when I get my read on you and destroy your "made" hand you tend to whine and rate my play as donkey. Well, I have to ask -- who is the real donkey? One who can't read their opponent or one who plays their opponent?
Poker is much more than just stats and cards. Poker is about having the skill to make it look like luck. I know what you have -- the question is....Do you have any clue to what I have?
TiltWife - aka: Melale
Thanks for reading, comments are welcome!!!
What is more important, having a hand or knowing what your opponent has? I'll take reading your hand over having a perceived made hand any day. If I know what you raise with -- I know I can gut you. Trust me - I have the patience. If you raise with AK - A10, and I know this, I'll take a chance with two live cards, not only for the implied odds, but for the tilt odds too.
It does not matter what cards you hold vs. what I hold, and it really does not matter what you think of my play . What does matter is that I know what you have, and I will use it against you.
What I find funny is that when I get my read on you and destroy your "made" hand you tend to whine and rate my play as donkey. Well, I have to ask -- who is the real donkey? One who can't read their opponent or one who plays their opponent?
Poker is much more than just stats and cards. Poker is about having the skill to make it look like luck. I know what you have -- the question is....Do you have any clue to what I have?
TiltWife - aka: Melale
Thanks for reading, comments are welcome!!!
posted by tiltpirate at 7:59 AM
27 Comments:
Nicely said.
Not so nicely said actually.... and not so smart either...
You can take your "two live card junk" up against me any time you want...
I don't care if you DO know I have A-K... if you bring A-rag to that fight it WILL lose FAR more often than it wins... that's not skill... it looks like luck when it sucks out because it IS luck.
When you play a hand as a 2:1 underdog... knowing that going in... for all your chips... that is NOT skill.
I will have the superior hand and the law of averages IS on my side...
Suckouts are NOT skill!!
Skill is getting your opposition to commit HIS chips... when YOU have the superior hand.
Dix, the world of implied odds must be foreign to you.
yes...i am a comment junkie...
Certain players in our group, raise according to set patterns, making it easy to read what they have after playing with them over a period of time, percentages are just that...percentages to win. certan types of hands have an ability to hit the flop and draw out. When this happens the "solid" player, cannot control their emotional response, and gives away the rest of their chips. This eventual outcome makes some drawing hands worth playing, when you have faith in your reads. Poker is not just about cards, its about playing your opponent.
Dix - did you think this particular blog entry was written for you? Your comment leads me to believe that.
Either way - I think you may have missed the spirit in which this entry was written.
Odds and percentages are a very important part of poker, no doubt there. However; my entry was focusing on reading your opposition and using this SKILL against them.
I fully understand the risks in calling as the underdog and tourney play is a different style than cash play. How many times have you seen me knowlingly going in as the underdog on the cash tables?
It is much more difficult to call a raise than to make the raise. Especially in tourney play.
Suckouts also happen because opposition is willing to put their chips on the line -- regardless of the percentages and odds.
And we all know I am cleopatra - Queen of the River.
Spirit of the blog was to point out that playing your opposition is just as important as playing your cards.
I'm sorry that you seem to have taken this so personally. How about I promise to fold J3sooted for the next three weeks? Will that make you feel better? LOL :)
The world of implied odds is NOT foriegn to me... however... those that use implied odds effectively are not making the entire play preflop... let's get a grip on reality.
And no, I did NOT think this was directed at me... I KNOW who it was directed toward... yet... there is NO skill involved once the cards were turned over.. and when they were you've had the worse hands... on more than a few occasions... and from that point on there is ZERO skill involved.
Playing the player works in getting him to go in AFTER you have a beter hand... not in sucking out with a worse one.
You WILL lose those battles more often than you win them... and those are numbers you can't dodge... Those stats don't lie... unless you are God.
Cold hard fact.... End of story.
Taking Q-9 up against A-J for all your chips preflop is skill when Q-9 sucks out?
Had you made a hand after the flop and had gotten him to push then... you might have a point.
More controversy lol! I think you are both right just because I don't want to argue with either one of you. If she knew that he had AJ and thought that by raising him he would fold, then it was a good play. If she thought she had the best hand and then sucked out, well she just got lucky against a better hand. If she knew he had a better hand preflop and didn't care, then that is just relying on luck not skill and that doesn't make you money in the long run.
Wow Dix - pretty harsh, even for you.
Why don't we just say we are both entitled to our much different opinions?
Opinions are opinions.... facts are facts.... never confuse the two.
And the tone of your posts has been pretty harsh.... from post one... and I'm not the only one who thinks so.
(in fact "harsh" was the exact word used to me after they read your opening comments)
While I'm pretty light-hearted for the most part... I'll NEVER stand for my (or anyone else's) intelligence being insulted.
Call the play what it was... I'm short stacked, I'm desparate, I hope I've got two live cards here that I hope I can get lucky with as double-up.
I've made the exact same one myself at times... MANY TIMES.
And when I got lucky with it... always called the play what it was... a short-stack move.
I didn't try to BULLSHIT people with how "skillful" a move my suckout was.
I don't have an ego I have to stroke.
If I suck out on someone I say I'm sorry thought you were bluffing or I just got lucky or whatever. Truth is, it doesn't matter too much to the person at the time, but later they will be happy you said sorry for the bad beat even if it wasn't your fault. And If someone sucks out on me, I say nh or good catch even though I may not mean it at the time because it shows that your are the better person for taking the high road and you know that your time will come. There is no reason for either side of the suckout/suckoutee to get mad about the outcome. It is a part of poker. Some days the best hand wins and some days the worst hand wins. All you can do like tilt says is control your reaction afterwards. Don't get mad about the bad beat, but also on the flip-side don't say you knew what he had after a horrendous suckout. Just say thought I had you beat or I hoped you would fold and I got lucky. Can't we all get along. This is nickle and dime. If you get mad about 5 dollars, you will never have the patience to play for much more money which is a goal I hope we are all trying to achieve. Let's help each other acheive that goal and we will all be a little happier down the road.
WOOOOOHOOOO!!!!! 11 COMMENTS AND COUNTING.
Its funny, I have seen these poker:luck or skill posts get so many comments on other blogs, I knew this one would get people commenting. Nice to know I have readers.
Dix- Fact a-j vz q-9, two live cards, 9 hits=win, q hits=win, ya get the point. Pre flop dominated, yes. I'll say it again. Aces have to whether 5 cards thudding down on the felt, yes, pre flop the are the favorite. So what? The skill was not in playing q-9, the skill was knowing what the other player had, and knowing there were two live cards.
Harsh tone- damn right, said it once, say it again. Snarky comments in tourneys will be replied to, Damn sure didn't start it, but will damn sure finish it.
Its different styles of play, and in realilty, keep playing your cards, and I'll keep playing you.
So I should play 27 off to ak all in preflop because I know they are live cards and that I have a chance at doubling up and winning the hand. Give it a break. You are making it worse. Just say you got lucky. And yes the other guys that got sucked out on shouldn't have made those comments. They were made out of frustration for not making the money the last 7 games.
I usually don't waste time by replying to anonymous posts, since I do not know who I am addressing, but here goes, comments made out of frustration? So what, this tourney was put together as a friendly game, don't want to be freindly, shut up, and don't insult people especially my wife, and expect me not to react. I will continue to react, until the reaction is not needed, and I stand behind the play, 2 live cards, poker is risk, don't want risk, don't play, don't want to be sucked out on, don't play, if you play, and you risk your chips, suck it up and reload, hey its the league motto. Next?
QUOTE: the skill was knowing what the other player had, and knowing there were two live cards.
---------------------------------
That's COMPLETE bullshit and you know it.
Knowing you have the worst hand and hoping you can suckout is SKILL????
Not in this nor any other reality.
And no one with ANY poker sense at all will say it is.
Hoping you can suck out is NOT "skillfull"... in any way shape or form.... get a grip
ahhh....next contestant, thanks for playing, dix its amazing to see that the only opinion that you see is yours. Here is my reply...wait for it...its gonna be good...here we go...TWO LIVE CARDS. Yes THE HAND needed to improve, so what, maybe space will help... t h e s k i l l w a s i n t h e r e a d. next time crayons
well you know i have to put my 2 sense worth in. whether it was a skillful play or a shitty play who gives a damn. im sure we all have made shitty plays and skillful alike. i think that the comments that were made after the hand was over is where this is all coming from. bad play or good play doesnt matter. and maybe the rude comments should be kept to themselves? that is part of the reason this is a private tournament isnt it?
Its too bad this had gotten so out of hand. When I first read Mel's blog, I felt it was harsh but after thinking about it, I can remember many times when I have felt very defensive about the way I have played hands and I think that she was simply feeling beat on for playing the hand. I personally would have folded. I know Brad. He is tight, when he raises or calls a hand, he usually has something. Mel is an aggressive player so I am not suprised she played it. I call hands when I shouldn't just because I have a feeling I will hit. We are all diffenent personalities which is part of what makes poker fun and challenging.
if you don't tilt then what is all this? you are NOT keeping your emotions or ego in check at all!!! You stop slinging horseshit and calling it facts, maybe I'll believe you're not on tilt, untill then, This will be my last post in this forum, and Thursday was my last entry to the league, I will not have my wife insulted, by anyone Dix, least of all you. To the friends that I have had the pleasure of playing with, its been fun...to the assholes that only recognize their own shitty play, and curse others, bite me. I have no interest in going back to kindergarten, Rule your little pond Dix, I for one, am leaving the sand box. Your ego will tell itself you won, but did you really?
Tilt out.
last comment was posted on the forum, wanted to put it here in case Dix's ego couldn't handle it.
Swimmer: You're right, Mel was not happy with the comments that were made after the hand, and neither was I. Insult me, I get bored, Insult my wife, I get even. I would rather play a freindly game, this is what it was designed to be, however, that has been gone for some time. Not sure why Dix feels the need to defend what was said, but oh well. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all smell like shit.
Brad was frustrated and said "piss poor" so what.. It WAS a SUCKOUT.
Mel should NOT have taken it so personally. It should have just been left at the table or between you two at home. Thats what hubbies are for, to vent to.
I was definitely NOT world war III material..
so what? piss poor was not the only thing he said thou. he made several comments. can u blame her for takin it personally? brad is a very good player, i give him a lot of credit. but was that the first bad beat he ever took? i dont think so. frustrated? very understandable. so because everyone respects brads play makes it ok for the rude comments at the table. i dont think so.
Maybe not.... but then neither is it sensible to go on about how "skillful" the suckout was.
So, you're SOOOO skillful because knew Brad had a good hand because he raised... well... whoop-de-do... your average houseplant knows that when Brad raises he's got a hand... where's the "skill in that?
Is there ANYONE that's played more than 10 hands with me, you, Brad, or most any of us that doesn't realize who raises mostly with only premium hands?
Pushing your stack in against that in a tournament "because I know I have two live cards" (knowing you are NOT the best hand) is not skill... it's being in on a wing and a prayer and hoping to get lucky... and NOTHING more.
And to try and pass that sh1t off that way is plain insulting... to anyone with any sense and experience... not just to Brad.
I can't believe how things can get so out of hand. I hope this all gets solved so we can go back to having fun.
Brad say nh and Melale say I got lucky and everything will be solved. Don't get so mad and make comments and don't get mad after the comments and say that was all skill or if you want to discuss it afterword make it a private conversation if not then KEEP IT ON THE TABLE. When we leave a game that should be the end of it. If you don't like a play say so, but in a nice way and if you don't like what comment was said to you then confront that person right then and there or in a private message. This is how everyone gets mad and everyone divided on the matter. Both of you have made great points and I think both sides are right and wrong. WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG - this is someone whom is just in the aqaurium and not supposed to be close friends like you guys are. Why so much animosity and tension? Please just give it a rest.
Hello everyone, I just happened to read this and thought i would give my 2 cents... First off, i have forgotten about Thursday nite, i did say "piss poor" about the all in call, i meant nothing personal, i would tell my brother the same thing. Mel, it wasnt personal, i will play u anytime, and your loose aggressive style can work out. But to say u read it and had live cards and all that crap, dont bs yourself... Hey i played with ya'll last nite and didnt know anything was wrong.. :) And lets move on, we'll tangle again, i have zero hard feelings towards anybody, i just speak out sometimes when i get crippled, its just me.....peace gang, cya at the tables.....
Well, the more i sit here, the more i want to talk about this. I would like to talk to tilt(who seems to more vocal, and mel, the person with me in the hand. This is weak, i've not insulted anyone to such points.. Tilt we always chat, lets keep that going.. Just talk to me.. Its ok.. Not really impressed with how the both of ya, and shawn too want to talk about me and then when at the tables last nite, nothing was said.. i was completely in the dark.. think that over and reply to Bradley.. it will all work out.. :)
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